Removes command from being eligible for round start antagonist #28173
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silverplatedelta
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Yes please. if you want to antag with Command stuff, assassinate or mindslave your boss and step up as their replacement. |
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Objection per discord comments: |
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Controversial PR, and a lot of people are gonna yap about soul removal, but if you're genuinely saying "yeah someone who can roundstart antag and hand all access out like candy to other traitors is a good thing", get your head checked. I dunno if I wanna go in on this gun's blazing, but defo worth a long term TM to gauge player viewpoint. |
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yeah hop is debatable, but other heads? nah, qwerty message prettyy much summs it up |
There is not a safe hook in the department just because a head would no longer be eligible for a round start antagonist. They could easily be fired, blackmailed, extorted, or converted. We have these mechanics in place for a reason, but they hardly get the use they have now. At this point the head antagonist limit has not stopped anything other than it brings down two command antagonists teaming up. This provides more incentive for RP, this helps to stop a few problems that are a constant occurrence. If you over trust a command because you think it is meta, it might just be your downfall. That element of paranoia still exists with this change. |
As I said with the discord as well, blackmail is hard enough to pull off, and we as admins probably don't approve it as much as we should, and conversions are not nearly common enough to keep up paranoia. It does not stop them from being overly trusted. |
That is why we are trying to change that narrative. I can't speak on what an admin should or shouldn't do, in regard to providing more meaningful RP opportunities. This could potentially bring more conversions up as a means to achieving objectives. If you over trust someone in this game, it can still be a mistake. The fact that you think you can trust someone now easier makes it even more of a threat factor when it turns out they weren't to be trusted in the first place. |
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^ it uses job.title which is Quartermaster not Quarter Master |
Co-authored-by: HMBGERDO <[email protected]> Signed-off-by: Burzah <[email protected]>
Yup. I misread it. Thanks for catching it! |
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WW PR |
Right. I forgot that is all handled in dynamic now. Well I will make the adjustments here soon. I still need to change flavor text and handle the teleport gun in general. EDIT: Also keeping the changes made to the game modes, in case we do fall back to those for any reason in the future (which I don't know why we would at this moment in time). |
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-Status: Awaiting review
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I agree on all points with Qwerty and Ramon here. If the goal of this is to stop antags from getting AA then it should stop at the HoP. Even then, having AA is not the be-all win all condition. It's also something security can counter.
Why should they be more trustworthy, antag status already takes priority over the command position they're in. I don't see a reason why a syndicate spy/sleeper agent/changeling/vampire cant work their way up the ranks. They're on a remote research station in the middle of nowhere near a place called "Lavaland" they're not working in central command.
I dislike the idea that all heads should be teachers, letting players choose how they want to run their department is a boon not a detriment. Not to mention that working in command is a learning experience in and of itself. We also have the addition of a dedicated role for teaching.
I dislike the idea of using OOC info that someone cant be an antag, the fear of repercussions comes from the antag taking action against you should you tell security what you saw, not the head of the department telling said antag you tried to snitch.
Not entirely sure how it encourages more RP, people should not feel forced to go along with any blackmail or extortion attempts, if anything it would restrict antags choices to mostly kidnapping. I would argue that having two antagonists who may be lying about their objectives to each-other or have each-other as objectives encourages better RP and is more fun. Overall this feels like a restriction of content, kneejerk reaction and Intended or not, an increase in the difficultly of playing an antag. All of which does not mix well for me, for now, I also object to these changes. |
The goal here is way bigger than stopping the command from just getting AA. That was covered in the sections above.
That doesn't hold any water in my opinion when you have the captain and security officers held to a standard that demands more trust. It doesn't matter where they are working, they are being entrusted with large amount of NT assets, something NT would want to at least try to safeguard, as they do with things like Corporate Security and a vetted captain.
That has always been apart of being in command. You are there to make sure your department runs efficiently and effectively. If you don't want to take the responsibility for all the things the department is, including its staff, you should not be playing command (in my opinion).
We do, and that is for teaching players who need their hand held through everything. Something I don't expect a commander to be able to do, command should at that point coordinate with CC or a trainer to help in these cases. We do expect command to teach others who might not be familiar with a certain job or procedure within a department.
They absolutely still can be an antagonist. We are not mind shielding them. They can be converted, mindslaved, and even thralled. A member of a department should in theory trust their commander though in times where things may be questionable. Command in this sense is supposed to help safeguard their departments including from threats within (which is part of the reason for this PR in general).
It wouldn't restrict an antags choice to mostly kidnapping at all. I know for a fact that admins encourage players to ahelp so that unique situations can be played out, this would encourage that. It just requires some effort now, which is something we want to see overall. Fun is also subjective.
Well it is a restriction of some content yes, for the sake of improving other content. It certainly is not a knee-jerk reaction to anything though. In fact, this was a PR that was something that we discussed for almost two years now. It just finally took shape today. I have had this conversation with Matt alone a few times while being on the development team. It is meant to increase the difficulty of antagonist by not handing out good gear and access round start without having to make some effort. All that said, I appreciate you sharing your concerns about the PR. Right now this PR is in draft, and will eventually by TM'd. That means it will be open for adjustments. This is something I truly believe in and that I think we should try, in order to help shape our content in a healthier way. |
unsure if this is a good idea, the telegun is good, but im unsure if its hijack good, granted i haven't seen it that much since it was nerfed. Maybe that nerf should be reverted for this? unsure, probably best for another pr though. |
I will take that up with balance, but this was decided since this weapon is for the RD only as is right now. So it is okay for this PR, but would be fine in another one, if we want to remove it from the game while this is on TM. Balance team was not for just transferring it to science. |
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@Ahzpy @Scribble-Sheep @Fordoxia All 3 of you need to chill out and keep it civil. Criticising the idea is fine, shouting at eachother is not. Be calm and collective in PR discussion, all of you. |
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Interesting... Looking at the reviews and comments, I can say with my 2000 hours that I've gathered some knowledge. Command positions do offer a great deal if you're rolling any Antag. As an example for the Chief Engineer, round start equipment which offers a variety of advantages against security. Engineering door remote can access every single public and maintenance doors on the station making it possible to trap officers in there. CE offers a very big advantage if you roll vampire like hell? You got multiple atmospheric sections throughout the station where air is being transferred to maintenance vent's. Including and not limited to Electrical Maintenance, Atmospherics Checkpoint, Turbine, Incinerator. All of these locations cannot be accessed by security without an ID card or tools. A lower chance for Head's to roll Antag sure is a good thing and I agree, but a full on removal from rolling any antags if you roll a command position? That's too much. Make the chances slim but don't outright remove the chance for it. |
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So far, I'm satisfied with previous changes making multiple command antags less likely. I generally appreciate what a well roleplayed command antag can bring to a round, and while I loathe RD antag due to their free access to reactive armor, that's more of a problem with the armor than it is with antagonist command. I also agree with previously stated concerns of people going to department heads specifically for things they want a confirmed non-antag (at least roundstart) to do. |
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Only one I can really see needing this would be the HOP. The CE, CMO, RD, and QM though? No. This will just result in antags treating all the heads the way they do the captain -as a target that must be killed if they are present in their area due to being an obstacle that will always be against you. |
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Heads of staff, who have authority over entire departments and are in charge of carrying high-risk items still roll traitor too often. HOP has already been pointed out in the comments as the biggest problem with handing out AA, but other heads also have too much power for how often they roll traitor, for example: CE - The round is already over if they have hijack I don't understand why its a bad thing that heads of staff will be trusted more if this PR gets merged. They are the heads of their departments trusted to keep their high-risk items safe and they have more responsibilities than a standard security officer. If you cant trust the people in charge of the highly explosive engine or the all seeing AI, then who can you trust? |
I mean most engineers can do more or less what the CE can. They can build death machines, delam the engine, make a singulo, plasmaflood, they get tools and can just ask for/steal better ones from rnd later. Engineers just in general are very powerful creatures
Most people in sci can jsut print off msot the boards they need to do this as well, and also have most sci access besides maybe genetics. and robotics. This isnt very special to them. Maint AI consoles are definitely the bane of many command.
This can go both ways. A Qm will have to ensure a cargo tech doesnt see and reports it, but this also works vice versa. Any cargo tech can order much of this either from their own account to self approve, even if QM does have an easier time doing this with the supply account. The primary issue is no one noticing the acts. In the end, yes, heads SHOULD be trusted more, in the sense that they should be knowledgeable in their field. A head, antag or not, that doesnt know what they are doing is going to be under more scrutiny. Simply being a head makes stealth harder because your lack of presence can be immediately noted if you vacate. In the end, as with what others have said I also agree the other PRs to limit it to 2 heads and locking evidence behind its own codes should be sufficient. If anything, maybe lower it to only 1 head. But I cannot agree with complete removal. |
For reference 28217 is unrelated to this it just reminded me to get around to finally doing it |
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I thought it was decided to increase the price of telegun and make it availible to all sci. Not lock it behind hijack??? If its to be hijack only, it needs a buff. |
You have 6 shots on a single charge and you can send people to ruins and round remove them instantly. This needs a buff??????? |
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It was nerfed way back to only send to beacons on station zlevel. So yes, for it to be hijack only, it needs a buff. Otherwise it takes the same effort an RSG does to be effective killing machine. There are very few hijack only items and they are hijack only not because of their power but for what their end goal is. Beacon is well, a singulo beacon, meaning the only people who should get it are hijacks. His grace needs you to kill anyone and everyone to SURVIVE. Thus the only people who can effectively use it and not break the rules are hijackers. You can choose who you shoot with the telegun. Just like you can decide who you meat with a chainsaw, shoot with rsg memechems, and so on and so forth. |
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In addition to everything brought up before, am also not a fan of the whole 'can't be a roundstart antag, but isn't mindshielded' mechanic. It makes no sense thematically, and from a player point of view, you can only find this mechanic out by reading the wiki. If you don't stumble across it at the bottom of a wiki page, you could play 500 rounds without discovering this mechanic. Blackmail and bribery is also ridiculously difficult to pull off, given that the recipient literally needs to adminhelp beforehand or risk being bwoinked. I doubt that removing the remote possibility that the head you're trying to blackmail is also an antag will make such attempts any more common. |
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Before I say anything against this PR, I do think that removing HOP antags from the game is a good idea. I like to play HOP, and whenever I roll antag while doing so I always end up feeling dirty. No player should be able to give out AA to everyone, modify open job slots, and etc. So, if this PR's purpose was only to remove the HOP's antag eligibility, I'd be all for it. "Heads should be trustworthy and vetted even more so than security officers. This aligns more to what is considered acceptable behavior when even considering the hiring of command staff." By removing antag eligibility from 5 roles (RD, CMO, CE, QM, HOP) you're creating 5 more players which people will know with 100% certainty aren't roundstart antags. You're essentially giving security 5 people who they can trust completely, without fear that trusting them will come back and bite them in the ass. Heads should be the teachers of the departments, as well as the ones to make sure their departments are secure. They have an overall responsibility to be commanders. Says who? Since when are heads of staff glorified teachers? There's already a role for teaching newbies, that being the NCT. And be it as it may, you don't need a head of staff to teach you how to do your job; chances are there's people other than the RD to teach you how to do science. Reduces antag rolling on command positions for gear and access specific reasons. If an antag wants these things, there are many in-game means to achieving this without being a round start head. Rolling head of staff antag for the specific purpose of getting their gear/access is a scummy thing to do, and is generally frowned upon. While I understand that the intentions behind this are good, this isn't the way to do it. This is a people issue, not a game issue. *Heads can now be trusted by their subordinates more. This means being able to report crimes they see without the fear of repercussions. What repercussions? When has a person that screamed "SIMON MCSHAIN VAMP!!! MEDICAL MAINTENANCE!!!" ever been punished by their department head for doing that? I don't understand what you're talking about here. I mean, I DO understand what you mean, but the scenario you're describing is so ultra-specific and unlikely that it's almost irrational. For this to even happen, a person would have to see a crime, not call it out on comms, go to their department head and tell them instead. And then what? The department head pulls out a gun and shoots them? It encourages more RP means of manipulating or removing heads as an obstacle, such as blackmailing, extortion, getting them fired, or other means of mechanical control (thralling, mindslave, etc). I'd say it does the complete opposite, actually. Here's why: With all of these options, there's a degree of uncertainty. The head might go back on the deal, they might rat you out to security, they can always do something that leaves you feeling wronged and betrayed. Wordless murder: It works! Come up to the head, shoot them 4 times with a 357, drag them into maints and strip them. Take their ID and their things, then skeddadle. It's simple, it's quick, and it can't backfire on you. The head of staff can't go back on your deal, because the only deal here is between him and the 4 rounds of .357 magnum stuck in his upper body. It's a done deal, already finished. So how exactly is RP encouraged, if the option least likely to get you hurt is both the simplest, and the most effective? This is already how things tend to go down with head-related objectives, how does this PR change that? The only difference now is that the head is now 100% not an antag, so there's no remorse when you later find out the CE you killed was actually a vamp. Any time you get an objective to kill a head of staff, your soul can be lighter than a feather as you chuck them into the supermatter. Why thrall them in the first place? If I, Antag McAntagson, decide that a head of staff is in my way, why don't I just kill them? I can steal their access and their items, then bring them back naked into medbay. It's not against the rules, it's completely understandable. The only person hurt in this scenario is the head of the department, because they no longer get to play the game. Now, if you've read up to this point, you might have some counter arguments ready. The issue is, they likely don't hold much water because of a good reason: I think before we make a drastic change like this, first limit it to only the HOP. Give the hop a mindshield if you feel like it, but don't touch the rest of the heads. I'd rather see a gradual change over an immediate "oops! No more command antags!". |
I think it would be even worse than that. I am not an admin, so take this with a grain of salt, but the rules define metagaming as "using OOC information acquired via means unavailable to other players". This info is availible to all players and paradise has no restriction on what you can know about antags, so it would be perfectly fine for an officer to say "The CE can't have stolen the nuke core because NT screens all heads to make sure they're not undercover agents." |
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This feels like a PR made to shake up a meta that doesn't really exist, where basically every round all antags get all-access within minutes of play. If it all-access is a concern, this ban should probably only be on HoP. I strongly disagree with having non-minshielded roles be basically 100% trustworthy in all rounds except for cult. Traitors have the WOLOLO staff and mindslave implants, both very expensive and don't see much use outside of surplus crates. Vampires need to be a specific archetype to get companions and clings do not get any. Plus, wouldn't this lead to sec always going "let me talk to your head, you're not trustworthy" every time they want something? Didn't we remove brig physician for pretty much the same reason? To have sec risk something when they want implants or whatever. There is no reason for a nearly 100% trustworthy head to purposefully fumble a sec order, so this would increase the amount of times sec can get good gear fast. The most powerful items in the game are common ones like stunprods etc. The gear heads get is nice, but you can find a reasonable substitute as anyone else. The added access is nice, but many roles get a lot of access too, for example explorers which could use the teleporter. Something that was brought up was the need to kill and step up as head. But does it really matter if the antag head does some head stuff round start then leaves to do some antag stuff versus the head doing some head things round start then get killed and replaced with an antag doing antag things? In both the cases the department will be without a head, but in the first the head could potentially come back and do head stuff again, while the replacing antag head probably wont. I don't think I've ever seen a head be bribed or blackmailed/extorted for anything. The reason for that is probably because a lot of players does not like that situation from an out-of-character stand point, with the exception of bribes, so they would subconsciously fight it rather than lose their items. Bribes could work, but credits are fairly useless. As for firing your head in order to replace them. How would you realistically do that? It is hard enough to fire an incompetent head. I also agree with the opinion that some players like having role locked characters and this would limit their ability to do so. Though I like the telegun being a hijack scientist item if this goes through. TLDR; Seems like a feature removal plus sec buff. |
Signed-off-by: DGamerL <[email protected]>
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I am honestly baffled to see this actually merged permanently. |
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Called it. Countdown to the PR comments being locked in 3, 2, 1. |
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I thought this was going to be a "long term TM", have you really gathered enough data from just 2 weeks? |
What Does This PR Do
This removes the following roles from being able to role as a round start antagonist. This does not mean they will be mindshielded, only that they will now not be able to be traitors, vampires, or changelings. They can still be converted, thralled, mindslaved or even hired into the command position.
In addition this also moves the Telegun to a hijack only item strictly for scientists.
Why It's Good For The Game
This is good for the game for a few reasons:
Heads should be trustworthy and vetted even more so than security officers. This aligns more to what is considered acceptable behavior when even considering the hiring of command staff.
Heads should be the teachers of the departments, as well as the ones to make sure their departments are secure. They have an overall responsibility to be commanders.
Reduces antag rolling on command positions for gear and access specific reasons. If an antag wants these things, there are many in-game means to achieving this without being a round start head.
Heads can now be trusted by their subordinates more. This means being able to report crimes they see without the fear of repercussions.
It encourages more RP means of manipulating or removing heads as an obstacle, such as blackmailing, extortion, getting them fired, or other means of mechanical control (thralling, mindslave, etc).
Testing
Checked antags over multiple days during TM.
Observed no command level antags.
Declaration
Changelog
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Tweak: Removed command from round start antagonist eligibility.
Tweak: Telegun moved to hijack only item for scientists.
/:cl: