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AskAcademia-1519437877-7zthjr.json
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{
"sid": "7zthjr",
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/",
"title:": "Unintended sexism",
"text": "I have to train a couple of students, I have never done this before. The training periods are usually very long hours in the day, from 8am to 10pm. So I get to hang around these people a lot! Unfortunately me and the guy have started becoming good friends. The girl has additional classes and sometimes she is not present and it's just the two of us guys. The conversations tend to get less professional when she isn't around. We talk about music, about travel and our ex bosses. But also, I share my experiences with the guy. For example, how I thought of a particular solution or what i was looking for to get an idea. The girl misses these discussions. \n\nThere is a huge lack of women in the STEM world where we all are. I hate to be part of the problem by propogating the boys club. I noticed this problem in the two days I have been training them, thankfully we have a year to go.\n\nHow do I rectify the problem? I already feel the girl not enjoying working in the lab as much as the guy, and that I may be a reason. This is not that bad though, we all have fun in the lab. There laughter all around, it's just that the girl student is a bit nervous around me, while the guy student treats me like a friend. It maybe a second order problem, but I find it troubling and want to fix it. I am just starting my academic career, and want to do things right.\n\nThanks for all your help!\n\n\nUpdate:\nThank you all for your replies!\n1. I did start making notes about important things to tell her when she is not around.\n2. Yesterday, we had a breakthrough in our work and since then it has been very easy to talk. (It was something unexpected and beautiful, and I may have let or a strong of profanities which might have broken the ice). All is good now :)\n",
"author": "NicolasAndHisPotions",
"created": 1519437877,
"updated": 1634081783,
"over_18": false,
"upvotes": 119,
"upvote_ratio": 0.9,
"comments": {
"duqtjta": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/duqtjta/",
"text": "It is really wonderful that you are conscientious enough to pick this up. We need more people like that\u2014 kudos! ",
"author": "jesusbroughtorangess",
"created": 1519446979,
"upvotes": 66,
"replies": {
"dustsw1": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/dustsw1/",
"text": "Thanks, I do believe we need more people to consider how there actions may have unintended affects on people.",
"author": "NicolasAndHisPotions",
"created": 1519562266,
"upvotes": 6,
"replies": {}
}
}
},
"duqnkjv": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/duqnkjv/",
"text": "All you can do is go out of your way to include her in conversations as much as possible. Fill her in on what she missed. No reason for you to pull back from the camaraderie with the other student. It's great that you're even aware of the imbalance, but it's not because she is female, it's because of her extra classes. \n\nThough, it does come to mind -- how many more hours of classes is she taking than the guy? Even if it was a 2 hr class every day, 8am-10pm is rough as hell and I wouldn't think 2 hr should make much of a difference?",
"author": "popsocketqueen",
"created": 1519439340,
"upvotes": 73,
"replies": {
"duqo3ah": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/duqo3ah/",
"text": "I didn't think of that....both of them are taking one two hour class, buy the girl is teaching a lab course as well, and that's two whole afternoons. And their classes and labs are in a city two hours by train. So she essentially misses almost two days in a week. she is quite upset. And today she left around three hours before us to go meet her friends (which is completely okay) but she missed some exciting developments. That was when it hit me that I had inadvertently formed a 'boys club' and that there must be something I should do to include her in it as well. Unfortunately, it is easier for me to talk to the guy (he is very laid back and relaxed) and it is rather difficult for me to talk to the girl (we both are somewhat social akward and anxious, and make each other nervous). I had just ignored these things earlier thinking they were just my social ineptitude... But I will at all cost get her talking. (Today for instance we looked at some grad schools to apply to, and which profs who have gotten new grants and have funding available) I will have to tell her all of this tomorrow.",
"author": "NicolasAndHisPotions",
"created": 1519439988,
"upvotes": 27,
"replies": {
"duqq4af": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/duqq4af/",
"text": "If the other male student is naturally more outgoing and sociable, you can always ask him to help initially draw her in to the community. ",
"author": "vedasis",
"created": 1519442502,
"upvotes": 24,
"replies": {}
}
}
}
}
},
"durdnf1": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/durdnf1/",
"text": ">The training periods are usually very long hours in the day, from 8am to 10pm. So I get to hang around these people a lot! Unfortunately me and the guy have started becoming good friends. The girl has additional classes and sometimes she is not present and it's just the two of us guys.\n\nIt would appear that these training sessions do not need to extend from 8am to 10pm. If both students need to be involved-- and need to get the same information-- then you need to shorten them and restrict them to times during which both students can attend.\n\nAs it stands, it appears to me that you're either shorting the girl what she should be getting in the way of training, or dragging things out for the guy, for whatever reason. Either way, it appears that the situation is not appropriate.\n\nIt *is* unfair that you're apparently supposed to be training both of these people, and yet one of the two-- who seems to have a legitimate reason for not being there-- is not getting everything that the other is. This is your problem, not hers. The correct response is to restrict the training to times that both students can be present. You can hang out with your friend outside of training, but you shouldn't be leaving one of the two students out.\n\nOr if both students can't be there enough of the time that you can get through what you need to cover, then, then you need to revise your training schedule so that you can do the same activities / cover the same material with each student separately within the allotted time. Frankly, there's no reason that you need to be having 12-hour marathon training sessions. That's enormously inefficient use of time, unless it literally involves multiple hours of driving to wherever you need to be.\n\n",
"author": "deaconblues99",
"created": 1519487073,
"upvotes": 17,
"replies": {
"dustmjh": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/dustmjh/",
"text": "Well I say training session, but in reality we are actually doing experiments. We get time on it once in two months so we work hard during our experiment time. There no training, they both just do there experiments. Don't worry about the times, we are in Switzerland, they get compensatory holidays after these marathon sessions :) (I have to go check if I do too because I am exhausted)",
"author": "NicolasAndHisPotions",
"created": 1519561859,
"upvotes": 2,
"replies": {}
}
}
},
"duqsud5": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/duqsud5/",
"text": "It's great that you're aware of the potentially problematic dynamic you're creating and open to doing something about it. You're being a good mentor and a good man.\n\nTry not to focus on the akwardness--somehow you manage not to be awkward around the male student, right? I'm sure you're more natural than you think.\n\nYou could try verbally telling your female student, \"It's nice to see you; we miss you when you're not around.\" Or, set up an opportunity for her to demonstrate her expertise: \"Student! We were just talking about how much you know about X. Will you take the lead on Y?\"\n\nIt's likely she's acting timid and anxious because she feels uncomfortable. If you show her she belongs, I bet she'll come out of her shell and start taking more ownership of your working group. ",
"author": "brownidegurl",
"created": 1519445978,
"upvotes": 33,
"replies": {
"dustxel": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/dustxel/",
"text": "I took the second option and asked her to teach me some chemistry concepts in a paper I was reading. I had too, she's very good at it and as a physicist I have a natural disdain for chemistry :D but I learnt something and she's a good teacher.",
"author": "NicolasAndHisPotions",
"created": 1519562548,
"upvotes": 6,
"replies": {
"dut05oo": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/dut05oo/",
"text": "Nice! I'm so glad things are moving in the right direction. ",
"author": "brownidegurl",
"created": 1519572707,
"upvotes": 3,
"replies": {}
}
}
},
"dururvd": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/dururvd/",
"text": "> You could try verbally telling your female student, \"It's nice to see you; we miss you when you're not around.\" Or, set up an opportunity for her to demonstrate her expertise: \"Student! We were just talking about how much you know about X. Will you take the lead on Y?\"\n\nthey aren't children",
"author": "Matthew94",
"created": 1519506852,
"upvotes": 1,
"replies": {
"dus0847": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/dus0847/",
"text": "What about the comment implies that they're children? Can you say more, or provide another suggestion?",
"author": "brownidegurl",
"created": 1519513381,
"upvotes": 4,
"replies": {
"dus2htc": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/dus2htc/",
"text": "Both of those sound like the kind of things you'd say to children, not working adults.\n\nIf my supervisor said \"oh, I miss you when you aren't around\" I'd think they were taking the piss.",
"author": "Matthew94",
"created": 1519516173,
"upvotes": 2,
"replies": {
"dust4r6": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/dust4r6/",
"text": "> If my supervisor said \"oh, I miss you when you aren't around\" I'd think they were taking the piss.\n\nI agree. That sounds bit unprofessional at best and, depending on delivery, possibly even a bit creepy.",
"author": "polyphonal",
"created": 1519560683,
"upvotes": 3,
"replies": {}
}
}
}
}
}
}
}
}
},
"durdf26": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/durdf26/",
"text": "OP, I think it's excellent that you're asking this question. This follow-up is where I think things get tricky:\n\n\"Unfortunately, it is easier for me to talk to the guy (he is very laid back and relaxed) and it is rather difficult for me to talk to the girl (we both are somewhat social akward and anxious, and make each other nervous).\"\n\nI'm sure you've read all of the literature about hiring/how offices and labs end up being homogenous because of \"culture\" (i.e. humans have a natural bias toward people like ourselves).\n\nThis is where I would *strongly* encourage you to adopt a little more formality in your interactions with both students. It's possible to have a collegial workspace where people are polite, professional, and *NOT FRIENDS*. Because \"feeling friendly toward XYZ\" sets up a structure that doesn't have anything to do with job execution and has a lot to do with supporting existing biases.\n\nFor women, in particular, (but also people of color, parents, or anyone whose life is a little different from an office's \"norm\") the \"informal\" relationships game that's cultivated over beers, on the golf course or in personal conversations sets up exactly the dynamic that you're so thoughtfully trying to fight.\n\nMy granddad (also a college professor) was a personally warm and friendly character everywhere but the classroom and the lab -- where he was reserved, slightly formal, and never discussed personal matters with undergrads or grad students. (He was warmer with his longtime colleagues, but mostly while socializing off campus.) He adopted that tack in the 1960s and '70s, because it established a level playing field for his students/lab staff at a time when women and (in his case) black graduate students needed equal access to his time, attention and supervision.\n\nIt's not super fun to be formal, and it's hard to pull back toward a professional reserve once you've introduced a more casual tone, but you're in charge and you have to set the boundaries.\n\nAnd, really: Good for you for being careful with this. It's important.",
"author": "FarmersMarketHoney",
"created": 1519486778,
"upvotes": 16,
"replies": {
"durnxgu": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/durnxgu/",
"text": "Yes, this is SO important. It's tough because academia has a very informal culture, and that culture is often what draws people to academia versus the corporate world. Even so, if you want to attract the best students and do the best work, you need to be able to collaborate effectively with people who you wouldn't necessarily be friends with outside of a professional setting. (Related: Academics should have friends who do other things. Don't fall into the \"my work is my life, my colleagues are my friends, I don't need boundaries\" trap.)\n\nOne way to build trust with the people you manage is to make them feel supported even if/when they make mistakes. Share your own stories about, \"I remember when I was first starting out, I did XYZ and was so scared to tell my advisor about it...\" Let both students know that you'll train them to do good work but that you know it will take time for them to get the hang of it and that making mistakes is normal. Young women in particular are really prone to imposter syndrome, so opening up about your own challenges and imperfections is a good way to build rapport and help her develop confidence. ",
"author": "soafraidofbees",
"created": 1519498864,
"upvotes": 9,
"replies": {
"dustrop": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/dustrop/",
"text": "I had never thought about this honestly and I have not thought enough to see the pros and cons of being formal versus being informal.\n\nBut I do recognize that it is makes a huge difference and gives introverted people a disadvantage. But does an informal environment encourage creative ideas, or increase productivity? I don't know... We'll have to read up. Thanks for pointing it out!\n\nI have an insane number of failure stories, and I do share them :)",
"author": "NicolasAndHisPotions",
"created": 1519562191,
"upvotes": 1,
"replies": {}
}
}
}
}
},
"duqwski": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/duqwski/",
"text": "Do you carry a notebook? If you and the other guy discuss something that would be useful for her as well you could make a note of it. Then next time you see her take a minute or so to fill her in. It should help her feel included and welcome and less of a 'third wheel'.",
"author": "Cellamore",
"created": 1519452005,
"upvotes": 9,
"replies": {}
},
"dur2szh": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/dur2szh/",
"text": "I don\u2019t think this is sexism, unintended or otherwise and you\u2019re not creating a boys club by not having discussions with her when she\u2019s not present because of other commitments. Do your best to include her, but if she has other commitments then she\u2019s missing out with you. She might get the last laugh, how do you know she\u2019s not benefiting more (or will benefit more) from the other work? She might be getting all the help she\u2019ll need or it might her a boost to her career down the line somewhere. It\u2019s great that you\u2019re being considerate, but don\u2019t hold back from trying to help either of your students. Encourage them both to share information and help each other. You\u2019ve only been at it 2 days, as you go through the year their timetables might change \n\nEdit: not really sure why I\u2019m being downvoted for saying that OP isn\u2019t evil",
"author": "legendfriend",
"created": 1519465193,
"upvotes": 0,
"replies": {
"durae1a": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/durae1a/",
"text": "I also read the post and didn't think there was any sexism from OP. ",
"author": "mimariposa",
"created": 1519482589,
"upvotes": 4,
"replies": {
"dutz4zb": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/dutz4zb/",
"text": "I also also didn't think it was sexism. You happened to spend more time and get along better with one more than the other. It has nothing to do with their gender. ",
"author": "UnspectacularAim",
"created": 1519612071,
"upvotes": 5,
"replies": {}
}
}
},
"durd5ae": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/durd5ae/",
"text": "It's because what you're saying is silly and wrong.",
"author": null,
"created": 1519486429,
"upvotes": 0,
"replies": {}
}
}
},
"durcg2y": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/durcg2y/",
"text": "[deleted]",
"author": null,
"created": 1519485523,
"upvotes": -9,
"replies": {
"durd4qa": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/durd4qa/",
"text": "Weird how someone holding or doing a masters in sociology is able to say something so ignorant of the way that gendered inequalities work in institutions. Men hanging out with other men is a key way that opportunities and resources get shared and distributed in academia. It happens all the time and usually men are not aware of it because they don't realise that women have different experiences. The OP is a classic case of how gender hierarchies in academia are produced and reproduced and it is good that the OP is doing something about it. ",
"author": null,
"created": 1519486410,
"upvotes": 22,
"replies": {
"durdffc": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/durdffc/",
"text": "[deleted]",
"author": null,
"created": 1519486791,
"upvotes": -1,
"replies": {
"durtkge": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/durtkge/",
"text": "There will always be a reason in each particular situation that it doesn\u2019t feel like it\u2019s about gender. That\u2019s why it\u2019s so hard to address. ",
"author": "longliveFuriosa",
"created": 1519505407,
"upvotes": 8,
"replies": {
"durtp3f": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/durtp3f/",
"text": "[deleted]",
"author": null,
"created": 1519505563,
"upvotes": 0,
"replies": {
"durugmi": {
"link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/7zthjr/unintended_sexism/durugmi/",
"text": "Yeah. Kinda sucks. Kind of why this is still a problem that\u2019s really hard to solve. :( ",
"author": "longliveFuriosa",
"created": 1519506485,
"upvotes": 1,
"replies": {}
}
}
}
}
}
}
}
}
}
}
}
}
}