AskAcademia-1421461446-2sp2ms.json

{
  "sid": "2sp2ms",
  "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/",
  "title:": "Tales from a Faculty Hiring Committee",
  "text": "*The Scene:* My department is facing a retirement cliff - half of the faculty will retire in the next 5-10 years. The division only recently lifted a hiring freeze in order to try and address the issue. This is the first position of hopefully many that is being filled. The ad that went out was written by the faculty in committee fashion, where basically every professor contributed keywords they thought were important. Although current departmental leadership could have taken the opportunity to think about future departmental directions, they did not. The end result was vague to say the least, and the applications that came in were correspondingly varied. \n\n\n*The Committee:* \n\n* Chair: The leader of a center associated with the department\n\n* A former department chair\n\n* A professor retiring this year\n\n* A professor marginalized within the department by their subject matter\n\n* An outside member from a department that does work closer to that of the marginalized professor\n\n* A post-doc representative\n\n* A graduate student representative (me)\n\n\n*The Process:* The committee decided to focus on some of the key words mentioned in the advertisement, and to look for someone who would fill gaps within the department. Candidates who were considered too close in topic to professors with active research programs were rejected. That still left upwards of 80 applicants, so other reasons to reject them were found. These included: letters of recommendation were not enthusiastic enough, graduation date was too recent, graduation date was too old, publication record showed suspicious gaps, time as a post-doc was too long, they had married their PhD advisor, teaching experience was insufficient, diversity statement was racist, etc. Some candidates were rejected because of a knowledge of their advisor, some because of a knowledge of the candidate. Throughout, each committee member pursued their own agenda and preferences. This was particularly problematic in the case of the outside member, who applied the standards of their field to all the applicants whether they were from that field or not.\n\n\n*The Shortlist:* A long-shortlist of 13 candidates was provided to the 40+ faculty members, of whom 3 provided input. The hiring committee then narrowed the shortlist down to 6, with the same uneasy truces between committee member preferences. These 6 candidates were invited to interview.\n\n\n*The Interviews:* Each candidate was required to give a departmental seminar followed by a faculty-only talk divided into a research and a teaching component. They also had individual faculty meetings scheduled over two days, as well as a lunch with post-docs and graduate students that second day. \n\n\n*How has it gone?*\n\n* The search committee has not been present in its entirety at a single candidate's talks.\n\n* Faculty members routinely leave before the teaching component of the faculty-only talk.\n\n* For some candidates, not even 5 graduate students and 5 post-docs have been found to go to lunch. The department has about 100 of each.\n\n\n*What positive feedback have I heard about the candidates?*\n\n* They work on interesting questions\n\n* They have an interesting system\n\n* They have good funding history\n\n* Their work would attract students\n\n* They have good teaching and mentoring philosophies\n\n\n*What negative feedback have I heard about the candidates?*\n\n* They are of poor quality and deserve to be at their lower-ranked institutions\n\n* Their research is bad (from people not in the candidate's field)\n\n* They don't think about their research in the way that I would\n\n* They clearly don't know anything\n\n* They wouldn't be a good fit for the department\n\n* They only have personal reasons for coming, not scientific reasons\n\n* They will have difficulty getting funding\n\n\nParticular vitriol was drawn by a female candidate of whom the following faults were found:\n\n* she has no grasp of her own science\n\n* she comes across as too informal\n\n* she isn't cutting edge\n\n* she doesn't sell her research well\n\n* she is honest, but brings up too many negative things\n\n* she doesn't know enough about her students' research and put a photo of herself into her presentation instead of a student\n\n* she isn't a specialist in the field she wants to move into, which is why she wants to come to this department, but she doesn't know enough about it\n\n* she says it's an honor to be interviewed by the department, but she didn't demonstrate that with sufficient reverence in her talk (my personal favorite)\n\n\nI've written this in as detached a way as I can, both to try and give a clear picture of it and to calm myself about the process. Frankly, I'm appalled by the arbitrariness of the selection process and the nastiness in judging the candidates. There's a pettiness and a lack of respect that I find hard to understand.\n\n**tl;dr** Higher education is not full of higher-minded people.",
  "author": "Doe2015",
  "created": 1421461446,
  "updated": 1634081961,
  "over_18": false,
  "upvotes": 98,
  "upvote_ratio": 0.98,
  "comments": {
    "cnru56h": {
      "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnru56h/",
      "text": "At least your committee isn't overly influenced by administrators.  One hiring committee I'm on right now had one of our candidates rejected for an interview by our dean.  Why?  Our dean didn't know that in our field, the PI is the last author in the list.  \n\nI wish I was kidding.",
      "author": "invisible760",
      "created": 1421492518,
      "upvotes": 31,
      "replies": {
        "cns34st": {
          "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cns34st/",
          "text": "My father (industry engineer) insists that PI does NOT go last, and either goes first or the author list is in alphabetical order. When I told him WE don't do it like that, he retorts with \"people always think their field is special, but they all actually do things the same way\". I don't even know how to respond to that, as apparently working and publishing in my field does not give me sufficient expertise on how the author list is established.\n\nIt also seems to be people from more \"equation-y\" fields who assert their way over what they perceive as 'softer' fields. Even over things like... how those fields do things. A physicist will assert to a biologist how publications work in... biology. It's mind-boggling. Might go the other way too, but most cases I've seen followed that stupid notion of academic 'hardness'.",
          "author": "PsiWavefunction",
          "created": 1421519598,
          "upvotes": 11,
          "replies": {
            "cnsb670": {
              "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnsb670/",
              "text": "Physicists do love to invade fields.. but I'm not sure I've met a physicist who was stupid enough to think that publications are similarly structured in all fields. o-o",
              "author": "plasmanautics",
              "created": 1421536575,
              "upvotes": 4,
              "replies": {}
            }
          }
        },
        "cnsaeng": {
          "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnsaeng/",
          "text": "Yikes. Administrator participation in hiring committees does seem to be on the rise.",
          "author": "Doe2015",
          "created": 1421534912,
          "upvotes": 2,
          "replies": {
            "cnsbqf9": {
              "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnsbqf9/",
              "text": "> Yikes. Administrator participation in hiring committees does seem to be on the rise.\n\nNot in my experience really. In 25+ years of search committee work at a half-dozen schools, it's always been the same: the SC doesn't make the hire, they make a \"recommendation\" to the dean. The dean makes the hire.\n\nWhile I've never personally had a dean overturn a search committee recommendation I know it happens. Sometimes there are broader institutional priorities beyond simply hiring the candidate deemed \"best\" by the SC. It could be gender, diversity, an allied field, a spousal hire, who knows--- that's the deans's job.",
              "author": "SnowblindAlbino",
              "created": 1421537798,
              "upvotes": 5,
              "replies": {
                "cnsp3to": {
                  "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnsp3to/",
                  "text": "Yes, that's the same here.  But this was a rejection of someone before the interview stage.  We forward the cv of the folks we want to bring in for onsite interviews and that's where the reject occurred.  Never had that before.",
                  "author": "invisible760",
                  "created": 1421573715,
                  "upvotes": 1,
                  "replies": {}
                }
              }
            }
          }
        }
      }
    },
    "cnroc8l": {
      "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnroc8l/",
      "text": "As someone on the academic job market right now, I really wish I hadn't read that.",
      "author": "supernanify",
      "created": 1421470325,
      "upvotes": 24,
      "replies": {
        "cnsah2a": {
          "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnsah2a/",
          "text": "Hopefully most departments aren't like this.",
          "author": "Doe2015",
          "created": 1421535059,
          "upvotes": 2,
          "replies": {
            "cnsgv32": {
              "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnsgv32/",
              "text": "Well, fingers crossed.",
              "author": "supernanify",
              "created": 1421549100,
              "upvotes": 1,
              "replies": {}
            },
            "cnwjtzu": {
              "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnwjtzu/",
              "text": "I was on a hiring committee 2 years ago and this could have been written by me. Almost exactly the same experience.",
              "author": "ThatHermioneGranger",
              "created": 1421879362,
              "upvotes": 1,
              "replies": {}
            }
          }
        }
      }
    },
    "cnro7is": {
      "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnro7is/",
      "text": "I've been involved in perhaps two-dozen faculty searches over the last 25 years, and a dozen or so administrative searches. I am now left feeling very good that none of the institutions or departments I've worked in are even remotely as screwed up as OP's. My God.\n\nI'm a department chair, and one hard-and-fast rule we have is that retiring faculty have no role whatsoever in selecting their replacements. Generally speaking, we also exclude senior faculty who are near retirement from SCs as well; the future of the department needs to be determined by people who will actually *be* there in the future.\n\nOur search committees take their work incredibly seriously. On-campus interviews are three full days, and include many opportunities for students to interact with candidates-- including lunches absent other faculty, and of course actual teaching in the classroom (for which we collect written evaluations). We'll ask a pair of senior majors to host lunch and always have to cap attendance at 12 so it's possible for the candidate to talk to people; we usually have 20-30 majors that want to attend.\n\nI won't go into more detail, but suffice it to say this sort of trainwreck is not necessarily the standard in academe. Hopefully most candidates and SCs have a better-run and more rational hiring process/experience.\n\n",
      "author": "SnowblindAlbino",
      "created": 1421469997,
      "upvotes": 46,
      "replies": {
        "cnsagkp": {
          "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnsagkp/",
          "text": "I'm glad to hear that this kind of thing is not the norm. Populating the search committee was actually also problematic, but I didn't want to include that.",
          "author": "Doe2015",
          "created": 1421535029,
          "upvotes": 3,
          "replies": {
            "cnsb8mx": {
              "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnsb8mx/",
              "text": "> Populating the search committee was actually also problematic, but I didn't want to include that.\n\nWe only have about 15 faculty, so it's rare that we have more than a couple of people in the same general field as a search. Consequently, those few are automatic SC members. The rest we usually have more than enough volunteers. It's a lot of work though, at least if you do it right, so after a few rounds we try to give folks a break-- I chaired three searches in the last four years, so the department chair gave me a pass on this year's and likely for the next couple.\n\nIn any case, I hope you land somewhere a bit less frenetic and more competent. For the most part, I enjoy service work with my colleagues and since searches in particular are among the most critical service we can do it's rewarding when it goes well.",
              "author": "SnowblindAlbino",
              "created": 1421536724,
              "upvotes": 5,
              "replies": {}
            }
          }
        }
      }
    },
    "cnrl2nz": {
      "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnrl2nz/",
      "text": "Thanks for this. I've been on searches for non-faculty positions, and this sounds way worse. Was the female candidate you described the only female candidate?\n\nAlso:\n\n> diversity statement was racist\n\nSeriously!?",
      "author": "BewareTheSphere",
      "created": 1421462865,
      "upvotes": 20,
      "replies": {
        "cnrl7fg": {
          "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnrl7fg/",
          "text": "Yeah, it really makes you think. The female candidate was one of two.\n\nAnd yes, yes it was.",
          "author": "Doe2015",
          "created": 1421463156,
          "upvotes": 17,
          "replies": {}
        }
      }
    },
    "cnrwmlu": {
      "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnrwmlu/",
      "text": "Pretty interesting.  I'm fairly certain that rejection based on time-since-degree would be considered age discrimination at my university, but your laws may vary.  If not, your department may be using criteria that could cost them a lawsuit if the wrong party catches wind of it.  The marriage-based one would likewise be illegal here.",
      "author": "bellcrank",
      "created": 1421504241,
      "upvotes": 11,
      "replies": {
        "cns36il": {
          "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cns36il/",
          "text": "The marriage one struck me as especially icky. Sure there could be social consequences, but it has zero relevance to professional activity. None of anyone's business.",
          "author": "PsiWavefunction",
          "created": 1421519698,
          "upvotes": 3,
          "replies": {
            "cns3dlk": {
              "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cns3dlk/",
              "text": "The years-since-degree one is practically lifted from a \"here are things you could be sued for\" presentation I had to sit through at my university.  A lawyer for the university went through real life examples of people breaking basically every employment rule the state has a law for.  Someone was rejected in a faculty search and someone discovered he was rejected after the faculty worked out his approximate age from his degree year on scratch-paper from the meeting.  He turned around and sued the university for age discrimination.  \n  \nThe rejection based on who the applicant married is gross.  No better than rejecting based on someone's sexual orientation or divorce-status, in my opinion.  ",
              "author": "bellcrank",
              "created": 1421520105,
              "upvotes": 6,
              "replies": {
                "cnsbh7x": {
                  "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnsbh7x/",
                  "text": "While it certainly seems flimsy, isnt there a stronger possibility that the applicant may not have been through as rigorous a process if they were in a romantic (or 'pre-romantic') relationship with advisor?\n\nAlso, isn't that kind of relationship lawsuit material?",
                  "author": "retrojoe",
                  "created": 1421537239,
                  "upvotes": 2,
                  "replies": {
                    "cnse7io": {
                      "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnse7io/",
                      "text": "I think there is ample opportunity to assess the intellectual capacity of an applicant without dissecting their marriage life.",
                      "author": "bellcrank",
                      "created": 1421543196,
                      "upvotes": 8,
                      "replies": {}
                    }
                  }
                }
              }
            },
            "cnsakbh": {
              "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnsakbh/",
              "text": "True, and as r/bellcrank mentioned, there are discrimination laws. In this candidate's case it seemed their professional development was entirely reliant on their spouse, which was felt to be problematic.",
              "author": "Doe2015",
              "created": 1421535252,
              "upvotes": 3,
              "replies": {}
            },
            "cnscpb7": {
              "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnscpb7/",
              "text": "[deleted]",
              "author": null,
              "created": 1421539904,
              "upvotes": 3,
              "replies": {
                "cnuxkxz": {
                  "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnuxkxz/",
                  "text": "You don't know -- relationship could have happened after the whole PhD thing was over. I agree it's weird, but I don't think that one should be penalised professionally for a private, personal relationship. If no one else suffered from that arrangement, why not? There's no information on how it was conducted, and is thus none of anyone's business. Besides, they're married and ideally 'off that market', now. \n\nIt's fairly common in academia for relationships to form within labs -- it's not like you see much of anyone else anyway. Advisor-student is weird due to power balance (but, IMO, okay _after_ the advisor role is over), but what about postdoc-PI? Or postdoc-student? The issue is with _how_ it's done, I think -- if no one else's career or life suffers from it, then it's two consenting adults doing their thing. \n\nBut I think it's wrong to assume those things as being problematic just from reading a CV.",
                  "author": "PsiWavefunction",
                  "created": 1421765054,
                  "upvotes": 1,
                  "replies": {}
                }
              }
            }
          }
        },
        "cns79kw": {
          "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cns79kw/",
          "text": "[deleted]",
          "author": null,
          "created": 1421528205,
          "upvotes": 4,
          "replies": {
            "cnsahlu": {
              "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnsahlu/",
              "text": "This was certainly one of the concerns.",
              "author": "Doe2015",
              "created": 1421535091,
              "upvotes": 1,
              "replies": {}
            }
          }
        },
        "cnsbssu": {
          "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnsbssu/",
          "text": "> I'm fairly certain that rejection based on time-since-degree would be considered age discrimination at my university, but your laws may vary. \n\nIt's extremely common: many faculty feel there is a \"shelf life\" to a Ph.D. and if a candidate doesn't get a full-time (if not TT) job within, say, three years of the degree date there must be something wrong with them. It doesn't matter if they are 30 or 60, it's the time since the degree was granted.\n\nI've seen the same issue with multiple postdocs; if the candidate didn't get a \"real\" job within five years of degree completion, they are deemed tainted.",
          "author": "SnowblindAlbino",
          "created": 1421537941,
          "upvotes": 3,
          "replies": {}
        }
      }
    },
    "cnrp987": {
      "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnrp987/",
      "text": "No real comment other than how absurd your faculty seems to be. ",
      "author": "ryanpsych",
      "created": 1421472576,
      "upvotes": 7,
      "replies": {}
    },
    "cnrsw5h": {
      "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnrsw5h/",
      "text": "This comment has been overwritten by an open source script to protect this user's privacy. \n\n   If you would like to do the same, add the browser extension [GreaseMonkey](https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/greasemonkey/) to Firefox and add [this open source script](https://greasyfork.org/en/scripts/10380-reddit-overwrite).   \n\n Then simply click on your username on Reddit, go to the comments tab, and hit the new OVERWRITE button at the top.",
      "author": "fuck_communism",
      "created": 1421485690,
      "upvotes": 6,
      "replies": {}
    },
    "cnrzkbl": {
      "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnrzkbl/",
      "text": "I just want to add that though it may seem unfair to someone on the candidate's side, often committees are looking for \"fit\" over just mere excellence.  Of course a candidate must be good to even be considered, but often there are people who look \"better\" on paper who are completely overlooked or triaged because they do not fit what he department is looking for.  I don't see anything wrong with removing people from the running if their work is not what the department needs either because it is redundant with what they already have or just too far afield.  Someone with a spectacular publishing record but absolutely no demonstrated ability to do anything aside from just research projects (e.g. teaching, mentoring, grant writing, collaborations) might get overlooked for someone with a slightly less spectacular record but shows more readiness for faculty life.  And keep in mind that decisions that might seem arbitrary to someone who is not on the faculty may not be so, because these people will have to work with the person they hire for the rest of their professional careers and they will make decisions based on how much they think they can stand that person day to day, not just their research output.",
      "author": "zazzlekdazzle",
      "created": 1421512106,
      "upvotes": 4,
      "replies": {
        "cnsbxba": {
          "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnsbxba/",
          "text": "> And keep in mind that decisions that might seem arbitrary to someone who is not on the faculty may not be so, because these people will have to work with the person they hire for the rest of their professional careers and they will make decisions based on how much they think they can stand that person day to day, not just their research output.\n\nYes-- and this is what the mythical \"fit\" is really all about: personality.  I've met candidates who were great on paper and would probably be both productive scholars and good teachers, but I couldn't stand them personally. I'm never going to vote to hire someone who is unpleasant to be around, because even at mid-career I am looking at 25+ more years in the department. The last thing I want to do is have a hand in hiring someone who will negatively impact the collegial nature of our department or cause problems down the road.  Unfortunately, some people give off waves of \"I'm going to cause problems down the road\" as soon as you meet them in person.",
          "author": "SnowblindAlbino",
          "created": 1421538214,
          "upvotes": 3,
          "replies": {
            "cnsi2wj": {
              "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnsi2wj/",
              "text": "> I'm never going to vote to hire someone who is unpleasant to be around\n\nWhat I really am not sure about is whether one can guess the character of a candidate based on one hour discussion with them, or even a full day. When I interviewed I was so stressed that I had hallucinations in the evening; not the psychotic ones, the so called \"hypnagogic\" ones, but still it was the only time in my life I had them. I mean, it's a really weird experience, and you act weird, for better or for worse, but you don't act like yourself. But people observe you and then try to extrapolate from this gesture, or this word, or this question - they try to extrapolate some 40 years of your future work. Is not it bizarre?\n\nIf you think of your life, don't you remember cases when you really hated somebody (a classmate, a neighbor), only to discover some months, or even years later that they are wonderful? Becoming best friends with them? While this \"fit\" thing is really important, I am not quite sure we always have the capacity of making the right choice here.\n\nWe can probably hire some decent people if we look for those who are smooth, confident and positive during the interview. But at the same time I feel like we may also be missing some great types, who would have become great citizens in the department, but who are just a little off; a little weird. And it speaks of diversity, you know. White upper-class people of SLAC upbringing always behave safer, just because they know the culture. But is it really what we are looking for necessarily? I am not sure...",
              "author": "ampanmdagaba",
              "created": 1421551851,
              "upvotes": 3,
              "replies": {
                "cnskqy8": {
                  "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnskqy8/",
                  "text": ">> I'm never going to vote to hire someone who is unpleasant to be around\n\n> What I really am not sure about is whether one can guess the character of a candidate based on one hour discussion with them, or even a full day\n\nThat's certainly true. But we do an hour skype interview, and our campus interviews are three full days. As department chair, I end up spending perhaps 20+ hours with each candidate...I often pick them up at the airport, I have dinner with them (or coffee at least) the night before the interview, I drive them around the city to see neighborhoods, I observe them with my colleagues, etc.. When the interview is over the entire committee compares notes-- generally speaking our candidates are alone only while they sleep at night (let's call that 9 hours or so); the rest of the visit they are going to be with faculty, staff, or students from 7:00am until 9:00pm.  That's enough time to make a basic assessment I think, and honestly, the bad ones we can often weed out after just a few hours together. (Though that makes the rest of the interview process pretty painful for the committee, when they know the candidate will not get an offer but have to go through all the motions regardless.)\n\n> While this \"fit\" thing is really important, I am not quite sure we always have the capacity of making the right choice here.\n\nPerhaps not. But we certainly can-- and *do* --eliminate candidates who are curt to staff, dismissive of students, sexist, racist (really, it happens), classist, elitist, obnoxious, lacking in affect to the point it makes people uncomfortable, and all sort of other issues. It's a rough triage and I'm sure inaccurate at times; committees make mistakes and hire people that don't work out for a wide range of reasons. But I could give you a half-dozen examples of candidates who have said or done things during their visits that immediately disqualified them in the eyes of the committee, things that could only go under \"fit\" because they were still quite qualified on paper.\n\n>But at the same time I feel like we may also be missing some great types, who would have become great citizens in the department, but who are just a little off; a little weird. And it speaks of diversity, you know. White upper-class people of SLAC upbringing always behave safer, just because they know the culture. But is it really what we are looking for necessarily? I am not sure...\n\nI think my colleagues are really quite generous and genuine about this. They aren't saying \"Well, I don't like her shoes  so no go\" or \"This guy just won't fit in because he's not like me.\"  It's more often things like, for example, a male candidate who is dismissive of the female faculty in the department over the course of three days, or a candidate who treats our support staff poorly, or upon meeting with our students says they aren't all that interested in talking to them and would rather go for a walk. By the time we get people to campus all of them are eminently qualified professionally-- much of what remains is on a personal level and we have to asses them as best we are able.",
                  "author": "SnowblindAlbino",
                  "created": 1421558357,
                  "upvotes": 3,
                  "replies": {
                    "cnslhdl": {
                      "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnslhdl/",
                      "text": "> upon meeting with our students says they aren't all that interested in talking to them and would rather go for a walk\n\nThat's really weird! Yet even here one can imagine a counter-example of a weirdo professor who follows certain rituals, and can only interact productively with students within these rituals. But is totally great otherwise.\n\nWhat I am trying to say is that we are selecting for people who possess enough self-control not to commit serious mistakes; not to misstep too badly during the on-campus interview. And that's great, and probably these people will make reasonably successful colleagues, because they have enough wisdom, common sense and concentration to behave decently for a day (or 3 days in your case). But we are still looking at a proxy. We are selecting the best performer of a 3-days-long spiel, and hope that an ability to present this spiel nicely is indicative of their future success as our colleague. Yet it's not quite the same. \n\nIt's like choosing a swimmer to a swimming team based on how well they can perform a jig. Same logic applies: if they are in a good physical shape, they will be able to dance. If they have good habits of training for a goal, they will certainly be able to learn the moves. If they care about the position, they will find a score online. So an abitiliy to dance a jig is probably, actually, a pretty decent predictor of their success in swimming. We'll get decent candidates this way, but we'll probably never get the best candidate. The best swimmer ever will be decent in jig, but far from spectacular.\n\nI'm not even sure I know how I would change the process. Your process is probably almost perfect, with your 3 days on campus; some departments in our college make it all in one day with 30-minutes-long interviews, and it is much, much worse. Because expecting somebody to make a judgement about a person after a 30 minutes long interview is plain ridiculous. But even for a 2-days long interview, I still feel somewhat uneasy about this whole exercise, because my impression is that even though people are meaning well, they tend to choose candidate who are more predictable. Who are more like them: culturally, socially, psychologically. And I am not sure it is always good.",
                      "author": "ampanmdagaba",
                      "created": 1421560322,
                      "upvotes": 3,
                      "replies": {
                        "cnsn56j": {
                          "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnsn56j/",
                          "text": ">  I still feel somewhat uneasy about this whole exercise, because my impression is that even though people are meaning well, they tend to choose candidate who are more predictable. Who are more like them: culturally, socially, psychologically.\n\nPerhaps. But I've been on committees that have been very direct about their commitment to diversity-- not simply racial/ethnic/religious diversity, but specifically to looking for different personalities and skill sets. For example, a department full of extreme extroverts might look for someone who is a bit more restrained in the classroom. Or whatever.\n\nOf course, it's also important to keep in mind that these perceived \"failings\" that I'm talking about are not the primary factors upon which our decisions are based. What counts most of all for us is teaching potential, then research potential, then finally collegiality. It's not like we're making everyone take a Meyers-Briggs test when they get off the plane and then sending all the INTPs packing. \n\nThe really interesting thing about faculty hires, to me at least, is that we're one of the few professional industries that engages primarily in peer hiring. Most departments run search committees made up entirely of faculty, and in most cases any new hire might someday become chair over those on the search committee. You're not just hiring someone to work with, you're hiring someone you will be mentoring for six years or more, and whom may well someday be your \"boss.\" That, plus the long term prospects of tenure and rootedness, make the stakes higher and fundamentally different from other professions.\n\nBut yes, I'm sure we make mistakes. After all, outside of some psychology faculty, how many of us really know anything about personalities, social behavior, etc? It's clearly an arbitrary process in many ways, but it's what we have to work with. I think the fact that faculty take the responsibility seriously (at least at my institution) is important. But there's always the potential for errors, and as you suggest a significant possibility of self-reinforcement/replication that could well make it hard for those who don't \"fit\" to find a place in academe. But isn't that true in every profession ultimately?",
                          "author": "SnowblindAlbino",
                          "created": 1421565391,
                          "upvotes": 2,
                          "replies": {
                            "cnszh2q": {
                              "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnszh2q/",
                              "text": "Thank you for your very thoughtful and informative responses! It is really helpful to read your thoughts on this matter. Our search this year failed exactly for \"fit\" reasons; I hope we'll be more lucky, and more successful next year. Thanks again!",
                              "author": "ampanmdagaba",
                              "created": 1421607025,
                              "upvotes": 2,
                              "replies": {}
                            },
                            "cnsnhsd": {
                              "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnsnhsd/",
                              "text": "> we're making everyone take a Meyers-Briggs test\n\nWould something like this be worthwhile?  I sure there are psychometric tests for traits such as honesty, collegiality, etc. The results might be more objective than long interviews, which as is pointed-out by /u/ampanmdagaba may be at a high risk of resulting in over-rejection of candidates who have minor flaws.",
                              "author": "dapt",
                              "created": 1421566625,
                              "upvotes": 1,
                              "replies": {
                                "cnsstzf": {
                                  "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnsstzf/",
                                  "text": "> we're making everyone take a Meyers-Briggs test\n\nSorry, that sounds silly-- I left out the word \"not\" in that sentence. Late night typo on my part. Was trying to say we *wouldn't* do anything like that.",
                                  "author": "SnowblindAlbino",
                                  "created": 1421591795,
                                  "upvotes": 1,
                                  "replies": {}
                                }
                              }
                            }
                          }
                        }
                      }
                    }
                  }
                }
              }
            }
          }
        },
        "cnsan3w": {
          "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnsan3w/",
          "text": "Thanks for contributing this. These points are very valid and, as you mention, they are hard for someone not on the faculty to evaluate.",
          "author": "Doe2015",
          "created": 1421535415,
          "upvotes": 1,
          "replies": {}
        }
      }
    },
    "cnryb2p": {
      "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnryb2p/",
      "text": "Yeah.  It's junior high school all over again.  \n\nMy heart was broken, and I still owe 100K for my degree.  I will never own a home.\n\nOn the other hand, I love living in poverty and teaching 3 courses at the local Community College /s.\n\nI'm still publishing and doing research and attending conferences.  So, there's that.",
      "author": null,
      "created": 1421509122,
      "upvotes": 6,
      "replies": {
        "cnrzdzj": {
          "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnrzdzj/",
          "text": "Just curious, what is your field? ",
          "author": "AtlasAnimated",
          "created": 1421511705,
          "upvotes": 4,
          "replies": {
            "cns1fac": {
              "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cns1fac/",
              "text": "Anthropology--with specialization in Forensics/Physical/Biological/Evolution/Epidemiology.",
              "author": null,
              "created": 1421516044,
              "upvotes": 2,
              "replies": {
                "cnsglly": {
                  "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnsglly/",
                  "text": "I'm sure you already know about her, but just in case you don't, go read what Karen Kelskey \"The Professor is In\" is saying (http://theprofessorisin.com/).  She talks about exactly what you are so many other people are going through, and offers solid advice and ideas and help. ",
                  "author": "chocolatechipbrownie",
                  "created": 1421548517,
                  "upvotes": 2,
                  "replies": {}
                }
              }
            }
          }
        }
      }
    },
    "cnrvqnq": {
      "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnrvqnq/",
      "text": "\"Some candidates were rejected because of a knowledge of their advisor\"\n\nWould you be willing to expand on this with an example? Sounds like a \"guilt by association type situation, which totally sucks for that applicant. ",
      "author": null,
      "created": 1421500784,
      "upvotes": 2,
      "replies": {
        "cnrw7w1": {
          "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnrw7w1/",
          "text": "That happens at my place all the time.  Candidates have been flat out ignored (in my opinion) because they came from the same postdoctoral/grad lab as one of our other faculty.  In a politically charged department it's viewed as hiring an immediate ally.",
          "author": "invisible760",
          "created": 1421502751,
          "upvotes": 6,
          "replies": {
            "cnsbmgw": {
              "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnsbmgw/",
              "text": "On the other hand, my brother just got back from a year in a lab that created dysfunctional post-grads. Said he wouldn't want to work with anyone who been a) normalized to that environment, or b) didn't have the savvy to get out.",
              "author": "retrojoe",
              "created": 1421537559,
              "upvotes": 3,
              "replies": {}
            },
            "cns39lx": {
              "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cns39lx/",
              "text": "Hah, that criterion would wipe out our entire field, where practically everyone has crossed paths (crossed labs?) with pretty much everyone else at some point in their career. You'd be hard-pressed to find someone even twice-removed from the highly interbred community!",
              "author": "PsiWavefunction",
              "created": 1421519877,
              "upvotes": 2,
              "replies": {}
            }
          }
        },
        "cnsbyws": {
          "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnsbyws/",
          "text": "> \"Some candidates were rejected because of a knowledge of their advisor\"\n> Would you be willing to expand on this with an example? Sounds like a \"guilt by association type situation, which totally sucks for that applicant.\n\nI've seen people argue against candidates because faculty know (or think) their graduate department is poor, teaches something wrong, or is somehow incompatible with our interests. It's pretty common.",
          "author": "SnowblindAlbino",
          "created": 1421538311,
          "upvotes": 1,
          "replies": {}
        }
      }
    },
    "cnsgbm1": {
      "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnsgbm1/",
      "text": "Welp, this wasn't fun to read.\n\nI recently found out I'm a finalist for a TT position at a medium-sized state school. Campus visit is the first week of February. This was terrifying to read. :(",
      "author": "hochizo",
      "created": 1421547900,
      "upvotes": 1,
      "replies": {}
    },
    "cntvk5e": {
      "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cntvk5e/",
      "text": ">diversity statement was racist, \n\nWait a second... What on earth does this even mean? (I come from a nation where luckily we don't have such statements on job applications. I mean... what could be more non-discriminatory than anonymous internet files??)\n\nSo... Where there people who wrote \"kill the jews\" in the diversity statment or what could have they written there to get excluded for??",
      "author": "lucaxx85",
      "created": 1421682692,
      "upvotes": 1,
      "replies": {}
    },
    "cns3pcd": {
      "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cns3pcd/",
      "text": "One of the more aggravating parts of a search that I was party to was the white-male-problem: the faculty consists predominantly of white males, as does the student body and the profession in general.  When the lead candidate is a white male, a \"what are we going to do???\" mentality takes over.  The \"problem\" of hiring another white male is openly discussed in an environment where typically a stray statement that would be discriminatory to another race or gender would be cause to eject you from the committee immediately.  It's a little maddening to witness.  \n  \nI've seen it happen twice, and twice the solution was to pick the white male candidate, and then include a non-white-male second candidate and jockey for two hires.  It has worked both times, but I'd be interested in knowing what happens when this gambit fails and the committee is told they can only hire one person.",
      "author": "bellcrank",
      "created": 1421520782,
      "upvotes": 1,
      "replies": {
        "cnsc0vu": {
          "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnsc0vu/",
          "text": "Often what happens is that the dean says \"Your short list for interviews must be diverse.\" And then they say \"Your recommendation for hiring must reflect our priorities on diversity.\"\n\nWhat this means is \"The administration will not approve an offer to any white male candidate, so please don't include any in the short list.\" If you don't provide what the dean wants, she will either reject the short list or fail the search. Happens all the time.",
          "author": "SnowblindAlbino",
          "created": 1421538429,
          "upvotes": 2,
          "replies": {}
        }
      }
    },
    "cnro220": {
      "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnro220/",
      "text": "This is really interesting, but is there a question here that I didn't see? ",
      "author": "paithanq",
      "created": 1421469622,
      "upvotes": -5,
      "replies": {
        "cnrp3oi": {
          "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnrp3oi/",
          "text": "Is there supposed to be a question?",
          "author": "tardarsource",
          "created": 1421472185,
          "upvotes": 13,
          "replies": {
            "cnrpn14": {
              "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnrpn14/",
              "text": "That seems like the point of /r/AskAcademia/\n\nPretty freaky story, though!  Office politics scare me. ",
              "author": "paithanq",
              "created": 1421473596,
              "upvotes": 7,
              "replies": {}
            }
          }
        }
      }
    },
    "cnrqski": {
      "link": "/r/AskAcademia/comments/2sp2ms/tales_from_a_faculty_hiring_committee/cnrqski/",
      "text": "[deleted]",
      "author": null,
      "created": 1421476984,
      "upvotes": -2,
      "replies": {}
    }
  }
}