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- Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast
where we discuss science
and science-based tools for everyday life.
[instrumental music]
- I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm
a professor of neurobiology
and ophthalmology at
Stanford School of Medicine.
This podcast is separate from my teaching
and research roles at Stanford.
It is however, part of
my desire and effort
to bring zero cost to consumer
information about science
and science related tools
to the general public.
In keeping with that theme,
I'd like to thank the
sponsors of today's podcast.
Our first sponsor is
Belcampo Meat Company.
Belcampo Meat Company
is a regenerative farm
in Northern California that
raises organic grass fed
and grass-finished certified humane meats.
I eat meat about once a day.
I'm neither pure carnivore,
nor am I a vegetarian.
Obviously I eat meat.
The way I eat is I tend
to fast until about noon
and then I have my first meal
which generally consists
of a piece of beef.
It's either ground beef or a steak.
I like ribeyes, I like flat
irons, these kinds of things
and a small salad,
sometimes a large salad.
And then throughout the
day, I generally am low carb
until the evening when
I eat pasta and rice
and things of that sort.
Eating that way is what
optimizes my levels of alertness
and optimizes my sleep.
I've talked about this on
previous podcast episodes,
Now, because I eat meat
essentially every day,
the source of that meat is
extremely important to me.
I want it to be healthy for me
and I want the animals that it comes from
to be healthy and to
have lived a good life.
Conventionally raised animals
are confined to feedlots
and they eat a diet of
inflammatory grains,
which is terrible for them
and it's terrible for us
when we eat those meats.
Belcampo's animals graze on open pastures
and seasonal grasses,
which results in meat
that is higher in
nutrients and healthy fats.
They actually have very
high levels of Omega threes
which I've also talked
about on this podcast,
are important for mental
and physical health
for a variety of reasons.
The way Belcampo raises its animals
is also good for the environment.
They practice regenerative agriculture,
which means it's climate
positive and carbon negative
which translates to good for
us and good for the planet.
You can order Belcampo
sustainably raised meats
to be delivered straight to your door
using my code Huberman by
going to belcampo.com/huberman
and you'll get 20% off
your first time order.
That's belcampo.com/huberman for 20% off.
Today's podcast is also
brought to us by InsideTracker.
InsideTracker is a
personalized nutrition platform
that analyzes data from your blood and DNA
to help you better understand your body
and reach your health goals.
I've long been a believer
in getting blood work done
for the simple reason that many,
if not most of the factors that impact
our immediate and longterm health
can only be assessed from a blood test.
And now with the advent
of modern DNA tests,
we can get additional information
about our current health status
and our health trajectory.
One of major problems with
blood tests and DNA tests
available for most sources is
that you get the numbers back
and you can easily see
whether or not those numbers
are within the standard
range or outside the range.
But it's very hard to know what
to do with that information.
Also what the various factors are
that are being measured
is often very cryptic.
With InsideTracker,
they clarify everything.
They make it very clear and simple
as to what each of those
factors relates to,
so they give you some
understanding of what those are
and they give you ideas and suggestions
about things that you can
do with your lifestyle,
changes to your diet, changes
to your supplementation,
changes to your sleep
schedule or exercise patterns
that can serve to optimize the levels
of those various factors and your DNA.
In addition, they have something
called the inner age test
which compares your chronological age
which you already know
with your biological age
which gives you a sense of your lifespan
or predicted lifespan.
So that's crucially
important, and you can imagine
why many people, including me
would want that information.
If you'd like to try InsideTracker
you can visit insidetracker.com/huberman
and you'll get 25% off any
of InsideTracker's plans.
Use the code Huberman at checkout,
that's insidetracker.com/huberman
to get 25% off
any of InsideTracker's plans
and use the code Huberman
at checkout.
Today's episode is also brought
to us by Athletic Greens.
Athletic Greens is an
all-in-one vitamin mineral
probiotic drink.
I've been using Athletic Greens
for well over a decade now.
I started using Athletic
Greens and I still use
Athletic Greens because
I find it rather dizzying
to know which vitamins
and minerals to take.
And with Athletic Greens,
I cover all my bases
of vitamins and minerals.
In addition, it has
probiotics and we now know
from an enormous number of
quality peer reviewed studies
that the gut microbiome
is critically important
for our immune system function,
for the gut brain access
and for our mental functions
and probiotics are one way
to support the gut brain axis
and the gut health generally.
With Athletic Greens, I
basically just add water,
put in a little bit of lemon juice
'cause that's the way I like it.
Mix it up, it tastes delicious.
I'll do that once or twice a day.
It's compatible with
fasting at least for me,
it doesn't take me out of a fasting mode
which I do early in the day.
So most often I'll have my
Athletic Greens early in the day.
And then sometimes I'll
also have another one
late in the evening, or
sometimes even before bed.
I'm able to sleep after
drinking it without a problem.
If you'd like to try Athletic Greens
you can go to athleticgreens.com/huberman.
And if you do that, you
can claim a special offer.
They'll give you five free travel packs,
which are these little
packs that make it very easy
to mix up Athletic Greens
while you're on the road
or in the car or on a plane.
It makes all of that very simple.
And in addition, they will
give you a year supply
of vitamin D3 K2.
There are also a lot of
data supporting the fact
that vitamin D3 is critical
for a variety of health metrics.
We all know that we can get vitamin D3
from the sun, but many people including me
were not getting enough sunlight or D3
even if I was getting a lot of sunlight.
I know that 'cause I had my
blood levels measured of D3.
So I use vitamin D3 every day
in addition to the other things I take,
including Athletic Greens.
If you go to athleticgreens.com/huberman,
you'll get the Athletic Greens,
the five free travel packs
and a year supply of
the vitamin D3 and K2,
That's athleticgreens.com/huberman
to claim the special offer.
This month on the Huberman Lab Podcast,
we're talking all about
physical performance.
So that means athletic
performance, recreational exercise,
weightlifting, running, swimming, yoga,
skills and skill learning.
Today, we're going to talk about and focus
on skill learning.
We are going to focus on how
to learn skills more quickly
in particular motor skills.
This will also translate to things
like musical skills and
playing instruments,
but we're mainly going to
focus on physical movements
of the body that extend beyond the hands
like just playing the piano or the fingers
like playing the guitar.
But everything we're going to talk about
will also serve the formation
and the consolidation
and the performance of
other types of skills.
So if you're interested
in how to perform better,
whether or not it's dance or yoga
or even something that's
just very repetitive
like running or swimming, this
podcast episode is for you.
We're going to go deep into
the science of skill learning.
And we are going to talk
about very specific protocols
that the science points
to and has verified,
allow you to learn more
quickly to embed that learning
so that you remember it and
to be able to build up skills
more quickly than you would otherwise.
We are also going to touch on a few things
that I get asked about a
lot, but fortunately recently
I've had the time to go
deep into the literature,
extract the data for you and
that's mental visualization.
How does visualizing a
particular skill or practice
serve the learning and
or the consolidation
of that practice.
It turns out there are some
absolutely striking protocols
that one can use, striking
meaning they allow you
to learn faster and they
allow you to remember
how to do things more quickly and better
than if you were not doing
this mental rehearsal.
But the pattern of mental rehearsal
and when you do that mental rehearsal
turns out to be vitally important.
So I'm excited for today's episode.
We're going to share a lot
of information with you
and they're going to be a
lot of very simple takeaways.
So let's get started.
Before we get into the
topic of skill learning
and tools for accelerating skill learning,
I want to briefly revisit
the topic of temperature
which was covered in the last episode
and just highlight a
few things and clear up
some misunderstandings.
So last episode talked
about these incredible data
from my colleague, Craig
Heller's lab at Stanford.
He's in the department of biology,
showing that cooling the
palms in particular ways
and at particular times can allow athletes
or just recreational
exercisers to do more pull-ups,
dips, bench presses per
unit time, to run further,
to cycle further and to
feel better doing it.
There really are incredible
data that are anchored
in the biology of the vascular
system, the blood supply
and how it's involved in cooling us.
Many of you, dozens of you in fact said,
"Wait a second, you gave us
a protocol in this episode
"which says that we should
cool our palms periodically
"throughout exercise in order
to be able to do more work.
"But on the episode, before
that on growth hormone
"and thyroid hormone, you
said that heating up the body
"is good for release of growth hormone."
And I just want to clarify
that both things are true.
These are two separate protocols.
You should always warm
up before you exercise.
That warmup will not increase
your body temperature
or the muscle temperature to the point
where it's going to
diminish your work capacity,
that it's going to harm your performance.
The cooling of the palms,
which is really just a route
to cool your core in an efficient way,
the most efficient way, in fact
is about improving performance.
Heating up the body with exercise
and focusing on heat
increases or using sauna
for heat increases is geared
toward growth hormone release,
which is a separate matter.
So you can do both of these protocols
but you would want to do
them at separate times.
So just to make this very concrete
before I move on to today's topic.
If you're interested in doing more work,
being able to do more sets
and reps per unit time
and feel better doing it or to run further
or to cycle further, then
cooling the palms periodically
as I described in the previous episode
is going to be the way to go.
If you're interested in
getting growth hormone release,
well then hot sauna.
And I offered some other tools
if you don't have a sauna
in the episode on growth
hormone and thyroid hormone
is going to be the way to go.
So those are separate protocols.
You can include them
in your fitness regime
and your training regime,
but you do want to do them
at separate times.
And as a last point about this,
I also mentioned that
caffeine can either help
or hinder performance
depending on whether or not
you're caffeine adapted
because of the ways
that caffeine impacts body temperature
and all sorts of things like
vasodilation and constriction.
It's very simple.
If you enjoy caffeine before your workouts
and you're accustomed to
caffeine, meaning you drink it
three or five times or more a week.
100 to 300 milligrams this
is a typical daily dose
of caffeine.
Some of you are ingesting more, some less.
If you do that regularly,
well, then it's going to be
just fine to ingest caffeine
before you train.
It's not going to impact
your body temperature
and your vasodilation or constriction
in ways that will hinder you.
However, if you're not
a regular caffeine user
and you're thinking, "Oh, I'm
going to drink a cup of coffee
"and get this huge
performance enhancing effect."
Well, that's not going to happen.
Chances are it's going
to lead to increases
in body temperature and changes
in the way that blood flow
is happening in your
body, and in particular
on these palmer surfaces and in your face
that is going to likely
diminish performance.
So if you enjoy caffeine
and you're accustomed to it,
so-called caffeine adapted,
enjoy it before your training.
If you regularly, excuse
me, if you do not regularly
use caffeine, then you probably
do not want to view caffeine
as a performance enhancing tool.
And while we're on the topic of tools
and because this is a month
on athletic performance
and exercise and physical skill learning,
I want to offer an additional tool
that I've certainly found
useful, which is how to relieve
the so-called side stitch or side cramp
when running or swimming.
This actually relates to respiration
and to the nervous system
and it is not a cramp.
If you've ever been out
running and you felt like
you had a pain on your side,
that pain could be any number of things,
but what feels like cramping of your side
is actually due to what's
called collateralization
of the phrenic nerve which
is a lot harder to say
than a side cramp or a side stitch.
But here's the situation.
You have a set of nerves, which
is called the phrenic nerve
P-H-R-E-N-I-C.
The phrenic nerve, which
extends down from your brainstem
essentially, this region to your diaphragm
to control your breathing.
It has a collateral,
meaning it has a branch
just like the branch on a tree
that innovates your liver.
And if you are not
breathing deeply enough,
what can happen is you can
get what's called sometimes
a referenced pain.
Reference pain is probably
going to be familiar
to any of you have ever read
about how to recognize heart attack.
People have heart attacks
will sometimes have pain
on one side of their body, the left arm,
sometimes people that have
pain in a part of their back
or suddenly also get
pain in their shoulder
or part of their face.
This has to do with the fact
that many of our nerves branch,
meaning they're collateralized
to different organs and areas of the body.
And the way those nerves
are woven together,
it's often the case that
if we disrupt the pattern
of firing of electrical activity
in one of those nerve branches
that the other ones are affected too.
The side stitch, the pain
in your side as often
because of the contractions
of the diaphragm
because of the way you're
breathing while you're exercising,
running, or swimming or biking.
And as a consequence, you
feel pain in your side
but that's not a cramp.
The way to relieve it is very simple.
You do the physiological
side that I've talked about
in previous episodes of
the podcast and elsewhere
which has a double
inhale through the nose,
very deep and then a long exhale.
And you might want to repeat
that two or three times.
Typically that will
relieve the side stitch
because of the way that it
changes the firing patterns
of the phrenic nerve.
So the side stitch is
annoying, it's painful,
sometimes we think we're dehydrated
and you might be dehydrated.
But oftentimes it's just
that we're breathing
in a way that causes some
referenced pain of the liver.
We call it a side stitch or a side cramp,
and you can relieve it very easily
through the double inhale, long exhale.
That pattern done two or three times,
often you can continue
to engage in the exercise
while you do the double inhale exhale,
and it will just relieve itself that way.
So give it a try if you
experience the side stitch.
Some people I know are also
doing the double inhale,
long exhale during long
continuous bouts of exercise.
I actually do this when I run.
We have decent data
although these are still
unpublished data that that can engage
a kind of regular cadence
of heart rate variability.
So there are a number of reasons
why this physiological side
can be useful, but it
certainly can be useful
for relieving the side stitch
or so-called side cramp.
Let's talk about the
acquisition of new skills.
These could be skills such as
a golf swing or a tennis swing
or you're shooting free throws
or you're learning to dance
or you're learning an instrument.
I'm mainly going to focus
on athletic performance.
There are basically two types of skills.
Open loop and closed loop.
Open loop skills are
skills where you perform
some sort of motor
action and then you wait
and you get immediate feedback
as to whether or not it
was done correctly or not.
A good example will be
throwing darts at a dartboard.
So if you throw the dart, you get feedback
about whether or not you hit the bullseye,
you're off the dart board,
or you're some other location
on the dart board, that's open loop.
Closed loop would be something
that's more continuous.
So let's say you're a
runner and you're starting
to do some speed work and some sprints.
And you're running and
you can kind of feel
whether or not you're running correctly,
or maybe even have a coach
and they're correcting
your stride or you're trying
to do some sort of skill,
like a hopscotch skill,
which maybe you're doing
the ladder work where you're stepping
between designated spaces on the ground.
That's closed loop because as you go,
you can adjust your behavior
and you can adjust the distance
of your steps, or you
can adjust your speed
or you can adjust your
posture and you are able
to essentially do more
practice per unit time
but you're getting feedback
on a moment to moment basis.
So you have open loop and closed loop.
And just to make this very clear,
open loop would be
practicing your tennis serve.
So let's say that you set a target
on the other side of the net.
You throw the ball up
and you hit the ball,
it goes over that's open-loop.
You'll know whether or
not you were in the court,
you were on the location you wanted to hit
or close to it or not, that's open loop.
Closed loop would be if
you're in a regular can.
So maybe you're learning a swim stroke,
or maybe you're trying to
learn a particular rhythm
on the drum.
So maybe you're trying to
learn a particular beat.
I'm not very musical, so I'm
not going to embarrass myself
by giving an example of
this, although later I will,
where you're trying to get
a particular rhythm down.
And if you're not getting it,
you can adjust in real time
and try and catch up or slow
down or speed up, et cetera.
So hopefully you'll understand
open loop and closed loop.
You should always know before
you try and learn a skill,
whether or not it's
open loop or closed loop
and I'll return to why
that's important shortly.
But if you want to learn something,
ask is it open loop or closed loop.
There are essentially three
components of any skill
that involves motor movement.
And those are sensory
perception, actually perceiving
what you are doing and
what's happening around you.
So what you see, what you hear,
sometimes you're paying
attention to what you're doing
specifically like the
trajectory of your arm
or how you're moving your feet.
If you're learning to dance,
sometimes you're more focused
on something that's
happening outside of you,
like you're listening
for something in music
or you're paying attention
to the way your partner
is moving, et cetera.
So there's sensory input.
Then there are the actual movements.
So they're the movements
of your limbs and body.
And then there's something
called proprioception
and proprioception is often discussed
as kind of a sixth sense of
knowing where your limbs are
in relation to your body.
So proprioception is vitally important.
If I reached down and pick
up this pen and pick it up,
I'm not thinking about
where the pen in my hand is
relative to my body, but
proprioceptively, I'm aware of it
at kind of a six sense
deeper subconscious level.
I can also make myself
aware of where my limbs are.
And typically when we learn,
we are placing more focus
on proprioception than we do ordinarily.
So if I get up from this
chair and I happen to walk
out of the room, I don't
think about where my feet
are landing relative to one another.
But if my leg had fallen asleep
because I had been leaning on
one of the nerves of my leg
or something like that, and my
leg feels all tingly or numb.
I and you, if this were to happen to you,
would immediately notice a shift in gait.
It would feel strange,
I'd have to pay attention
to how I'm stepping.
And the reason is I'm not getting
any proprioceptive feedback.
Now, skill learning has a
lot of other dimensions too,
but those are the main ones
that we're going to focus on.
So just to remind you,
you need to know open loop
or closed loop and you need
to know whether or not,
excuse me, you need to know
that there's sensory perception
what you're paying attention to,
movements themselves and proprioception.
And there's one other important
thing that you need to know
which is that movement
of any kind is generated
from one, two or three sources
within your nervous system,
within your brain and body.
These are central pattern generators
which are sometimes called
CSPGs, excuse me, CPGSs,
CSPGs are something entirely
different in biology.
CPGSs, this just goes to
show that I have a module.
CSPGs are chondroid and
sulfate proteoglycans.
They have nothing to do with this topic.
CPGSs are central pattern
generators or CPGs,
they're sometimes called.
These CPGs are in your
spinal cord, mine and yours,
different ones and they
generate repetitive movements.
So if you're walking, if you're
running, if you're cycling,
if you're breathing,
which presumably you are
and you're doing that in a
regular rhythmic cadence,
central pattern generators
are controlling that movement.
After you learn how to
walk, run, swim, cycle,
do anything really, much
of the work is handed off
to the central pattern generators.
And there were experiments that were done
in the 60s, 70s and 80s
that actually looked
at decerebrate animals and
even decerebrate humans.
These are humans and animals
that lack a cerebral cortex.
They lack much of the brain
and yet they can engage
in what's called a fictive movement.
So it sounds like a kind
of barbaric experiment.
I'm glad I wasn't the
one to have to do them
but this is the stuff of
neuroscience textbooks
that cats or dogs or mice that
have their neocortex removed
put them on a treadmill,
they'll walk just fine.
And they will adjust their
speed of walking just fine
even though they basically
lack all their thinking
and decision-making brain.
And it turns out humans that have,
unfortunately, massive
strokes to their cortex
and lack any neocortex but preserve
the central pattern generators
will also walk just fine,
even though they lack any of
the other stuff in the brain.
So these CPGs or CPGSs are amazing,
and they control a lot of
our already learned behavior.
When you're really good at something,
CPGs are controlling a
lot of that behavior.
And that's true also for a golf swing.
Even if it's not really repetitive,
somebody who's really good
at golf it's going to,
I guess you call it a T.
You put the ball on the T.
I show with my knowledge of golf.
I've only done mini golf, frankly,
but someday maybe I'll learn how to golf,
but you set the golf ball down and swing,
set the golf ball down, swing.
Central pattern generators
are going to handle
a lot of that.
If I were to go to the golf course.
Stanford has a beautiful golf course.
If I were to go out there
and put a ball on the T,
my central pattern generators
would not be involved
in that at all.
The moment I bring the club back to swing,
it's going to engage other things.
And the other things
that's going to engage
because I don't know
that behavior now or then
is upper motor neurons.
We have motor neurons in our cortex,
in our neocortex that
control deliberate action.
And those are the ones
that you're engaging
when you are learning.
Those are the ones that
you have to pay attention
in order to engage.
And that's what's happening, for instance,
if I decide I'm going to
reach down and pick up my pen,
which I rarely think about,
but now I'm thinking about it
and I'm going to do this
in a very deliberate way.
I'm going to grab with
these two fingers and lift.
My upper motor neurons are now involved.
So upper motor neurons are very important
because a little bit later in the episode
when we talk about how
to use visualization
in order to accelerate skill learning,
it's going to leverage
these upper motor neurons
in very particular ways.
So we have CPGs for rhythmic movement,
upper motor neurons for
deliberate unlearned movements
or movements that we are
in the process of learning.
And then we have what are
called lower motor neurons.
Lower motor neurons are
the ones in our spinal cord
that send little wires out to our muscles
which actually caused the
firing of those muscle fibers.
So the way to think
about this as you've got
upper motor neurons which talk to CPGs
and the lower motor neurons.
So it's really simple.
And now, you know most
everything there is to know
about the neural pathways
controlling movement,
at least for sake of this discussion.
So anytime we learn
something, we have to decide
what to place our sensory perception on,
meaning what are we going to focus on.
That's critical if
you're listening to this
and you're the type of person
who likes taking notes,
this should be the
second question you ask.
Remember the first question
is, is it open loop
or closed loop?
The second question should be,
what should I focus my attention
on, auditory attention,
visual attention or proprioception.
Should I focus on where my
limbs are relative to my body
or should I focus on the outcome?
This is a critical distinction.
You can decide to learn
how to do a golf swing
or learn how to shoot free throws
or learn how to dance tango
and decide that you are going to focus
on the movements of your partner
or the positions of your feet.
You maybe are going to look at them,
maybe you're going to sense them.
You're going to actually
feel where they are,
or maybe you're going
to sense the position
and posture of your body,
which is more proprioception.
So you have to allocate your attention.
And I'm going to tell you how
to allocate your attention
best in order to learn faster.
So these are the sorts of
decisions that you have to make.
Fortunately for you,
you don't have to think
about whether or not you're going to use
your upper motor neurons
and your lower motor neurons
or not, because if you don't
know how to do something,
you're automatically going to engage
your upper motor neurons.
And if you do, then
you're not going to use
your upper motor neurons.
You're mainly going to rely
on central pattern generators.
You are always using
your lower motor neurons
to move muscle.
So we can really simplify things now.
I've given you a lot of
information but we can simplify it.
Basically open loop or closed
loop, that's one question
and what am I going to focus on?
And then your neurology
will take care of the rest.
So now I want to talk about
realistic expectations.
Somewhere in Hollywood presumably,
it got embedded in somebody's mind
that instant skill
acquisition was possible,
that you could take a particular pill
or you could touch a particular object
or you could have a wand wave over you
and you would suddenly have a skill.
And so that is the result
of Hollywood at all.
It doesn't exist, at least not in reality.
And I love movies, but
it simply doesn't exist.
Then the self-help literature
created another rule
called the 10,000 hours rule.
And frankly, that doesn't
really match the literature,
at least the scientific literature either.
I like it because it implies
that learning takes time,
which is more accurate
than the Hollywood at all
instant skill acquisition rule,
which isn't really a rule, it's a myth.
But the 10,000 hours rule
overlook something crucial,
which is that it's not about hours,
it's about repetitions.
Now, of course there's a
relationship between time
and repetitions, but there
are some beautiful experiments
that point to the fact
that by simple adjustment