Finding items in the New manuals

[JodyBevan]

Sorry to bother you but finding things in the new manuals are extremely challenging. Having been a long time professional developer with 4D since 1988 (international version 2.0.10) I wore out many of the early manuals reading them, and looking up topics.

With the web site, the format stayed a lot the same and I could still find things.

Of course the language, and many other things have changed dramatically (including the manuals). Do not get me wrong, I am loving working in 20R6. Like always I come across something that I either do not remember, or never learned how to do. I need to find it in the manual and look at the examples, and read the knowledge imparted there.

For example, today I need to loop through a collection of objects.
The For each - End for each is perfect for this.

The issue is I am deleting items from the collection as I loop through.
The way to handle this in the classic language was For - End For, but in reverse Order.

OK, I have not done that with For each - End for each.

So I spend an hour looking through the manual for this command.

• Not in the command Index
• Not in the Collection topic
• Do a search for 'for each' - told to be more specific
• The 'classic' manuals does not have the command and the Collection section links to the new manuals.

It is a challenge I constantly have with the new manuals. I cannot find what I need often.

I do not know the answer as to how to use the new manuals efficiently. Can you impart some good tips as to how to use them. I am certain this topic is in the new manuals.

As a long time reader of your manuals, I have never spent so many hours trying to find things in them before. I am obviously missing out on a concept(s)...

Thanks for any knowledge you can provide me with.

Jody

[arnaud4d]

Hello Jody,

First of all, thank you for taking the time to express your concerns. This helps us to improve the 4D documentation. I'm sorry to see that you're not entirely satisfied with the new documentation site, especially as we designed it to provide easier access to information, not the other way around!

The structure of the previous documentation was strongly influenced by 4D's initial architecture (language and framework), which has now evolved considerably. The new site has a more standard structure, more consistent with what 4D is today.

To answer your question, let me start by saying: trust search. It's powerful and fast. To take up your example, entering “for ea” or “loop collection” as a search string will find the relevant pages. Did anything go wrong when you searched? Even "for" will give the results, provided you scroll a little.

Another point is that some of the information is still shared between the new and old sites. For a specific search, I can advise you to use an AI and ask it the question, the answer is usually relevant as public AIs have well integrated 4D documentation. For example, the question “where to find how to loop through a collection in the 4D doc” gives good results with Copilot. Well, it's just a hint to accelerate things if the query seems quite complex, usually the search will give you the expected results.

I hope these tips will help you find the information you need more quickly. Please note that we have just integrated the classic commands from the Language manual into the new documentation. We still have a few sections to migrate, and the “new” site will be complete.

Best regards,
A.S.

[JodyBevan]

Thank you for your quick, and helpful reply. I am sure your intent is good, and efforts huge. I typically have been a person to sit down and read from the front to the back of the ‘book’. I think you are right about the structure of the old manual. Having been engulfed in the classic 4D environment for over 2 decades I knew it very well. Unfortunately I took 2 years off at a critical time in the evolution of 4D (v13 & 14). What I experienced yesterday is that I did a search for 'For Each’ and found nothing in the new or old documentation (20R6). I tried looking in collections and objects. I didn’t find anything. I looked in the Alphabetical list of commands (old Manual style for 20R6). After an hour I gave up. An hour after that I tried Google search for ‘4D For Each’. It brought me to the classic style manual in 18.4. There was the information I needed. At that time I then tried the search in the new manual again and the search result came right up instead of telling me to be more precise - too many results (I am paraphrasing). I will take your advice and try Copilot. My first use of it was just now. It presented the command. Thanks, this is another avenue of exploration. Thanks again for your attention, and assistance. Jody Bevan 

…

On Nov 15, 2024, at 03:23, arnaud-4d ***@***.***> wrote: Hello Jody, First of all, thank you for taking the time to express your concerns. This helps us to improve the 4D documentation. I'm sorry to see that you're not entirely satisfied with the new documentation site, especially as we designed it to provide easier access to information, not the other way around! The structure of the previous documentation was strongly influenced by 4D's initial architecture (language and framework), which has now evolved considerably. The new site has a more standard structure, more consistent with what 4D is today. To answer your question, let me start by saying: trust search. It's powerful and fast. To take up your example, entering “for ea” or “loop collection” as a search string will find the relevant pages. Did anything go wrong when you searched? Even "for" will give the results, provided you scroll a little. Another point is that some of the information is still shared between the new and old sites. For a specific search, I can advise you to use an AI and ask it the question, the answer is usually relevant as public AIs have well integrated 4D documentation. For example, the question “where to find how to loop through a collection in the 4D doc” gives good results with Copilot. Well, it's just a hint to accelerate things if the query seems quite complex, usually the search will give you the expected results. I hope these tips will help you find the information you need more quickly. Please note that we have just integrated the classic commands from the Language manual into the new documentation. We still have a few sections to migrate, and the “new” site will be complete. Best regards, A.S. — Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <#369 (comment)>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AHIY34VGYHBDNV4X4KLHQDL2AW4RBAVCNFSM6AAAAABRZSDYBWVHI2DSMVQWIX3LMV43OSLTON2WKQ3PNVWWK3TUHMZDINZYGMZDMOBUGQ>. You are receiving this because you authored the thread.